As Wikipedia has it, or at least had it. (I’m so witty. Please see the original manuscript.)
Software rot, also known as bit rot, code rot, software erosion, software decay, or software entropy is either a slow deterioration of software quality over time or its diminishing responsiveness that will eventually lead to software becoming faulty, unusable, or in need of upgrade. This is not a physical phenomenon: the software does not actually decay, but rather suffers from a lack of being responsive and updated with respect to the changing environment in which it resides.
The Jargon File, a compendium of hacker lore, defines “bit rot” as a jocular explanation for the degradation of a software program over time even if “nothing has changed”; the idea behind this is almost as if the bits that make up the program were subject to radioactive decay.
I’m firmly in the “jocular explanation” camp here. Like many deliberate but concise inaccuracies I believe the term can be a useful peg on which to hang some important thoughts.
Example
I’m using bit rot as shorthand for any degradation, of any discourse, in digital form. For example, here’s me aboard my acknowledged hobby-horse in August 2019:
That was in response to something critical said to me by “Amil Husain” (though that title can itself easily be changed) including the word ‘could’. And @amilh (for it is he) is still tweeting:
But all you can see now, from August 2019, if you were to try to follow the debate we were having, is a series of messages from Twitter itself:
This Tweet was deleted by the Tweet author. Learn more
That applies to all Amil’s tweets from that thread. And I call that bit rot. Twitter shouldn’t allow it but it’s become a major pattern of interaction there, when things seem to go badly for one of the protagonists. (Though I have never once deleted a tweet for that or any other reason.)
Despite the deletions I continue to like this part of what I said:
Sorry to be the bearer of good news.
Maybe it was on seeing the good news that Amil felt forced to delete. Too much already.
My general issue is that, because of the weaknesses of various systems we use and have got used to, we have become far too tolerant of bit rot.
But we are also fearful of it. In January 2020 Jaime Jessop expressed concern about Cliscep’s hosting service, WordPress.com, being overcome by ‘woke’ young techies (or something of the sort) who would succeed in shutting us down. As the lead system admin for the site I took that threat seriously – and I still do. I began to take measures designed to protect us. One or two other regulars know about them but I don’t wish for them to identify themselves. This is to illustrate the principle. It isn’t merely a theoretical concern.
Counterexample
If climate sceptics were really under the kind of attack we sometimes think we are, how come such a clear presentation of one crucial aspect of the debate has been hosted on YouTube, uninterrupted, since December 2009?
Genuine question. And yet …
Jump to 128 seconds in. Fred Singer appears for the first time with his prediction that within ten years (i.e. December 2019) or certainly within twenty years (you do the math) the world will have realised that climate alarmism is crazy. But in fact Fred Singer himself is no more, a fact I was alerted to by Geoff Chambers in April 2020.
I happened to come across this old video while I was looking for something else this morning. One half of Fred Singer’s prediction (the ten-year bit) was surely wrong. More bit rot.
But was that true of the whole? I hope at least the video is still there to check with again in 2029. The other parts don’t depend on Singer’s predictions in any case. But the combination got me thinking.
Richard, this raises lots of questions, the first of which to my mind is: should a permanent record be made of conversations? If we had a discussion over the garden fence it would be gone with the wind. On the other hand, Twitter conversations may have a large number of lurkers, so that it becomes a public conversation with attendant obligation to preserve.
Personally I would never delete a thread in which I lost an argument, because to me it is preferable to be able to change my mind rather than to pretend that I’ve never been defeated. In other words I would rather find out the truth than be right all the time. Old fashioned concept perhaps, but still.
On the other hand, the permanent records of conversations of old offer gold, or dirt, for the offence archaeologists to sift through. You don’t like someone? See if they said anything wrong in 2012 when they were 17.
The internet generally seems to be suffering from decay. In its first flush you could actually find what you were looking for. Indeed the ratio of signal to noise has done nothing but go down. Search for anything and someone will claim to be able to sell it to you (“dog sick” for example, although I haven’t tried that one). Then there is the stuff you remember but can’t lay your hands on, and the only methods for searching through the sewage to find the nugget you are looking for are hopelessly inadequate to the task, even with advanced queries. I am 99% sure that I once saw a contemporary advert for treatment for the Spanish Flu of a century ago: “Take Boric Acid and Stay Cheerful.” Can I find it now? No. Use that search term and I get Ebay saying “Fantastic Prices on Boric Acid.” I have noticed that Amazon will no longer find what you are looking for either. It will serve you ads for products that might be related to some degree.
Then there is the deliberate rot with the removal of adverse data (e.g. as I wrote about in Down the Memory Hole).
We seem to be drowning in information, and an increasing proportion of it is gibberish. Someone needs to invent a search engine that actually works.
Anyway, thanks for the term, which is just what I needed for a little story I’m working on (set, it hardly needs to be said, in a dystopian future).
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Sadly, I don’t see climate alarmism being subject to Bit Rot any time soon – quite the contrary, it just keeps getting worse. As I observed on Open Mic this morning, the Guardian seems on the quiet (or, at least, without the fanfare that announced the decision to talk about the “climate crisis”) to have upped the ante again. From global warming, to climate change, to climate crisis, it seems it’s now an escalating climate crisis. Regrettably, even though it’s little read these days, it’s read by the movers and shakers and opinion formers, and the BBC is in lockstep on this issue. So, expect to see the BBC talking of an “escalating climate crisis” before long, assuming the Guardian starts using that terminology on a regular basis (as seems likely).
And Jit, thank you for expressing your frustration with internet search engines – I thought I was the only one who can never find what I’m looking for, instead having to wade through Amazon adverts and sites pushed at me by algorithms which seem to think I want to read about the opposite of the object of my search. Harrumph.
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Mark: Just to be clear (if I wasn’t) I hadn’t got as far as thinking about how bit rot might affect climate alarmism. There’s an absence of obvious bit rot in the way YouTube has kept the old CO2Science video with Lindzen and Singer going and I was mildly encouraged by that. Salve for my paranoia, one could say. But we have all heard of shadow banning and other algorithmic means by which Google, Facebook and Twitter might make sure that very few people will ever find such offending specimens. And that’s where your and Jit’s comments about search engines may also come in. The whole thing (the algorithms, the rules, the censorious effects) is very opaque. And I don’t see an easy way to fix that. Open source is a nice idea in that regard but impractical, I feel sure, in at least two ways: people gaming a system they can see the code for and companies not wanting to give away their ‘crown jewels’.
If we just take Twitter (and I thank Geoff a great deal for raising this in his last thread, in his characteristically witty way) compare what Charles Rotter was saying about Twitter alternative GETTR for WUWT and what Joe Rogan was apparently saying about it – though that was according to a rival, Parler!
It’s incredibly hard to build up the same network effect that Twitter already has, in any case. (And Facebook much more so, though the youth are reportedly starting to move away from Big F. So perhaps competition still counts, thankfully.)
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Jit Rot. It came to me unbidden as I first read your comment, overlooking a rather stormy Bristol Channel 🙂
In fact it’s extremely helpful.
I hadn’t been thinking about that aspect and of course it’s dead right. Nevertheless, the integrity of what one party contributes in good faith to a public conversation can be completely kyboshed by deletion of the context, which any Twitter user has the power to do, without limit. That undermines trust in the whole system very deeply.
Talking of trust, I have to correct one thing I said:
I have sometimes deleted my tweets when the tweet I have quoted has been removed, making my comment meaningless. But not if people have replied to my tweet. Thou shalt not render anyone else’s tweet meaningless.
(And the deeper truth that you shouldn’t be a coward about being shown up and having to change your mind, as you rightly say.)
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Mark: Don’t forget “Global Heating”. The Guardian loves that one.
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Richard Drake said: ” It’s incredibly hard to build up the same network effect that Twitter already has, in any case. (And Facebook much more so, though the youth are reportedly starting to move away from Big F. So perhaps competition still counts, thankfully.)”
I read today on, er, Twitter, that Mark Zuckerberg had threatened to remove Facebook from Europe. I can’t remember why, and I can’t be bothered to try to go back to find out (it’s almost impossible (IME) to (deliberately) find anything a 2nd time on Twitter unless you bookmarked it), but he’s upset about something or other. Just think: all those billions, and he’s just a snowflake at heart.
And one prepared to commit financial suicide, apparently, although I don’t suppose he’ll run out of the money he’s made so far very soon.
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I expect to flit around in my responses today. Not through flippancy but because of the many questions raised, as Jit put it. So back to Mark:
But the repetition and ratcheting up begins to bore and even to unconvert many outside the Guardian/Beeb elite I feel. Time to remember Lewis Carroll and the start of his epic ‘The Hunting of the Snark‘
Was it really the place for a Snark? Or was the witty mathematician suggesting otherwise? Perhaps at the moment the idea of a crisis, versus something much more mundane, is a bore draw. But the way energy prices are going, surely not for long.
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Mike Ellwood:
Aha, here’s another counterexample of bit rot and indeed of Jit and Mark’s laments about search engines. I hadn’t heard this story but thought at once “Google must have something on that.” Not Twitter, but Google. Sure enough, from CityAM last night:
Interesting story, thanks Mike. And interesting counterexample.
I’m using Bit Rot pretty widely. More on that shortly.
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The last quote, from CityAM, introduces the term ‘Instagram’ which has for while been wholly owned as a kind of youth arm by Facebook, now wholly owned by parent company ‘Meta’. TikTok on the other hand is not owned by Meta and it’s where many young people are said to have drifted.
What do serious debates look like on TikTok? Pass. As I assume most young people do. My interest in Bit Rot is primarily in how debate of all kinds, but especially good debate, is both encouraged and preserved for posterity. But I thought Meta, Instagram and TikTok should at least get a mention. In passing.
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What triggered the rename of Facebook, the company as well as the product, to Meta last year? One aspect might well be competition from TikTok. The other I feel sure is the trouble Zuckerberg was having with Apple. This is also from Wired: How Apple screwed Facebook in May 2021
Ok, enough background. I find it interesting even if you don’t 🙂
From here on in I’m going to be considering mainly Twitter (where I started), WordPress.com and other long-form blogging engines and YouTube and other long-form video streaming services. And, within them, the debates we and others try to have and the rules we and others try to adopt to ‘encourage and preserve’ good debate. And thus minimise bit rot.
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Richard,
It IS interesting, even (perhaps especially) to we dinosaurs who just about handle basic IT, who have a simple Facebook page for the sole purpose of accessing Facebook pages of interest, and who don’t use Twitter, TikTok, Instagram et al, and who watch bemused while the rest of the world seems to spend increasing amounts of time on such things.
IF you can educate me about things I don’t understand, then please feel free.
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Thanks Mark. Parts of this – eg youth culture online and where it’s likely to go – are baffling to almost anyone. Other parts you can grok as well as I. (Tech slang being deployed as an encouragement!)
Yesterday I wrote:
This issue should also get a mention in passing:
That’s from the Telegraph back in December 2013.
How relevant is this to climate papers? Steve Mc has been in the thick of finding out since getting embroiled in the Hockey Stick from around 2003. Not all the news is good.
When such data, and even contact emails, are lost it’s certainly Bit Rot. But good debate is even more my focus here. Though well-preserved data is of course essential to good debate, as John Ridgway and others have been stressing in the case of Covid-19 deaths, as well as climate ones.
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Ok, this is getting hard, not least because of a horrible example of bit rot that I only read about yesterday and felt I had to include forthwith. That has to do with some very vulnerable youngsters. And then there is a parallel tale about two oldies.
As more background let’s look at some key Web content and discussion sites (or engines) and when the outfits concerned were founded.
Wikipedia Jan 01
WordPress May 03
Facebook Feb 04
YouTube Feb 05
Reddit Jun 05
Twitter Mar 06
Discord May 15
Substack Oct 17
This is my selection. I don’t claim to be exhaustive or even exhausted. But I think it’s more than a random sample as we try to get to grips with the harms, as well as the laughs, of Bit Rot in my expanded sense of the term.
Reddit is now included because it’s part of the vulnerable youngster story. It is used quite a bit by young people, based on my fairly limited experience of reading it – normally when I have a software problem or query not covered by Stack Overflow. It’s not as big as Facebook but it has some fiercely loyal subreddits on various niche topics. And what’s a subreddit? Here I hand to Jesse Aaron:
So, roughly, a subreddit is to Reddit what a Cliscep post is to Cliscep. Except typically the ‘comment stream’ of a subreddit is much more long-lasting than the stream of comments here (more like Open Mic here) and the appointed moderators have more power to shape the whole, potentially over many years, than the author of a post does here.
Clear? Didn’t think so 😉
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Yes, clear! Before I got to the end, I was thinking “sounds a bit like Cliscep posts on Cliscep, but maybe more aggressively moderated.”
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Mark: Real aficionados of Reddit would know how wrong we are. But it’ll do. The neat thing in a nasty story is that YouTube, Twitter and Reddit all play a part and I think the issues raised are pretty general. First thing tomorrow morning it’ll be now though.
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I’ve remembered a related incident in the last 15 days with Bit Rot implications. I’ll start with a chronological presentation of the three, as experienced by me, roughly speaking, followed by some analysis.
On 27th January (which happens to be Holocaust Memorial Day) Barry Cryer dies, aged 86. (Not really part of my Bit Rot story but the Jewish Chronicle’s article Funny how he wasn’t Jewish… farewell to beloved Barry Cryer on 3rd February is worth a read, not least for the man’s mastery of the Jewish mother joke.) Later on 27th Richard Herring releases on YouTube the recording of his long conversation with Cryer from around October 2021 (note to self: worth making that date more precise). Without a transcript (and that’s important for my theme here). And sensitive Cliscep reader warning: the language is strong right from the start.
On 28th January I notice that Joani Walsh’s old Twitter profile now reads (again, strong language warning):
‘Joani’ only has one follower as of 28 Jan so I make that two followers and text her. She is in the middle of Covid isolation. My timing is as always first-rate! She says “I must sort that out, I closed my Twitter account way back” and thanks me. We both assume it’s identity theft and the vindictiveness of transgender activists, still mad about her work as a freelance journalist for the Daily Mail and others during the early stages, around 2018, of (mostly women) questioning and taking action on what the UK trans lobby had already been up to. (The stunt where a group of women sported moustaches and claimed to be identifying as men, demanding unquestioned access to the Hampstead men’s pond, was written up for the Mail by Joani and really had impact.) What I’d call the breakthrough period for that particular issue. But the debate – and activism – is by no means over.
Last weekend I notice the aforementioned Richard Herring video and watch it all. Amongst all the expected jocularity Cryer does something quite out of the ordinary for Herring’s podcasts at 48m25s: he talks about Germaine Greer and the attempts to ‘no platform’ her due to her critical stance on trans activism. Was this the reason Herring had delayed the release of the video, in the context of many more ‘woke’ (and censorious, and woolly-minded) comics in his audiences than Barry? I later note that Greer was just three years younger than Cryer. Faithful friend. My respect for the non-Jewish gagmeister goes up tremendously.
(Now, I’m clearly taking a position on this debate. But Barry Cryer is careful not to say that he agrees with Greer on this (or any) issue. Just that he totally disagrees with her being no-platformed. Debate it openly! Clever as well as funny man.)
I’m in hospital for tests for the second time on Wednesday. (It looks like quite a benign diagnosis the doctor tells me last night. But that’s seriously off-topic here!) The point being I’m having a late breakfast having had the iodine poured through my system for the software imagery to work and I turn to Kindle on my iPhone, first time for a while. I’m in the middle of Helen Joyce’s brilliant Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality from July last year. (My second reading choice during my own Covid lockdown.) Here are just two of the rave reviews that interested me:
Dawkins only just managed to write that, in the teeth of furious opposition, apparently! But in terms of Changing Minds I liked the Aaronovitch. Like many he had been on the fence for too long. Admitting this is a good part of the process.
Helen Joyce has a PhD in Mathematics by the way. She stood out on Twitter when I was really there. Anyway, this is the place I had got to:
That hit me in the gut. It has profound implications for how we see Bit Rot but goes deeper than that. Anyone laughing about what has been done to these detransitioners, who’d thought they’d found a safe place in which to discuss their often heart-rending experiences, on Reddit, (and some would be laughing, make no mistake) … such people are suffering from heart rot.
I want to go back to some analysis of these ‘incidents’. Joani, though a hero in my eyes, caused a lot of bit rot by deleting her twitter account in the way she did. Those who’ve taken over her account have just made it worse. And so on. But that stuff will have to wait for another comment.
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Erratum: Barry Cryer died on 25th January but it was only announced, it seems, on 27th. (I trust Wikipedia. On this point. Not on everything.)
Anyway, after that somewhat emotionally gruelling account of my last 15 days, before doing ‘analysis’ just of these transactivist-related examples of Bit Rot, I’m going to take a wider look at things, and bring some other examples to mind.
First, John Ridgway was spot on yesterday to christen as ‘bit rot’ his inability to locate an earlier comment about his brother’s experience, as a surveyor, shedding light on the challenges of insulation, given the UK housing stock as it is, not as greens and ministers imagine it to be:
Spot on in that this was part of my definition from the beginning. If you can’t find that digital info then it’s rotted for you, however easy it might be for someone else, at Google or WordPress, say, to find it. And with that example we’re squarely back with climate and energy. We sceptics have real challenges with Bit Rot in our field of interest, I aver, not least because the debate, such as it has been, has been so long-lasting. From 1988 for goodness sake (1979 if you start counting from Charney). So much water under the bridge, some of it before the World Wide Web even existed, inevitably taking so many helpless bits and their context with it.
Here’s another example, in a different field and with a different cause, but a very common cause. When I wrote:
in my first section I considered using that wonderful quote from HH Munro aka Saki:
In the original Saki actually wrote “A little inaccuracy sometimes saves tons of explanation” but I think the version I first read and have used since is better! That tiny detail doesn’t rise to pre-digital bit rot though. In another twist, the short story ‘Clovis’ that includes this line was published in 1924 though Munro had been killed in World War I in 1916. (If only that German sniper had been inaccurate – and Munro himself had been in his concerns about a fellow soldier’s lit cigarette. A little prudence and concern about accuracy might have saved a precious life.)
But once Clovis was put into digital text form, very kindly, by persons unknown, around 2013, a familiar problem arose: the web page in question became extinct, between my noting the URL and wanting to use the quote and give context. But the Wayback Machine, as so often, came to my rescue in this case. There again, faffing with it slowed down the transfer from thought to bits to my prose (in new bits) and back to thought again. I call that kind of delay bit rot as well.
One more example. On chatting to Bill Bedford recently about anti-capitalism I remembered Matt Ridley calling himself a “free market anti-capitalist” – a phrase I very much liked. I seemed to remember that I’d heard Matt say that in a lengthy podcast recently – where he was being interviewed by someone else. Anyway I went searching with Google and came up with those very words in the transcript for a lengthy podcast. The excellent EconTalk series.
But most podcast episodes don’t have transcripts and this impacts the findability of such a phrase. Causing Bit Rot, as for John above. The Barry Cryer podcast episode included. But with that I listened right through and made a note right away of the place he mentioned Germaine Greer, because I was so struck by that (very short) moment. So no Bit Rot ensued.
Easy, isn’t it. Not. But my hunch is it’s going to be very important in our digital age to get people thinking much more seriously about such issues.
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Richard, thank you for your musings. By the way, how do we access/use the Wayback Machine?
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Nice short URL: https://archive.org/web/
Then enter the URL of the original page that has since ‘disappeared’. And then the interface takes a bit of getting used to!
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I should add that it’s not guaranteed that WMa (as I call it) will have anything for a given URL. The whys and wherefores on that are opaque, like much else in this area. If not, you’re probably stuck.
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Thanks Richard. That was easy. 🙂 I’ve bookmarked the web page.
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Mark, as Alan Kay said: “Simple things should be simple, complex things should be possible.” Sadly we’re not talking about a world based on software of the kind Kay advocated. And that’s a long story.
Many complex things lead to needless dead-ends. But Wayback Machine, as it stands, and without knowing about its future funding (really key point), does in 2022 make finding many disappeared web pages pretty easy.
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Let me jump out of the detail and provide a pseudo-taxonomy of Bit Rot as I’ve been using it.
In my latest long comment I was talking about Bit Rot of content, not debate.
So that’s the top level divide. But I’m really interested in Bit Rot of debate.
Which I divide into Deliberate, Accidental, Mistakenness and Benevolent.
Benevolent bit rot is what Jit talked about in the first comment.
The New Testament says “love covers a multitude of sins”.
That’s what benevolent bit rot is all about. But that could play into less charitable motives that others have.
Deliberate bit rot I divide into Malign and Reckless (or careless, or heedless).
Joani Walsh did what so many others have done after getting fed up with Twitter: deleting her whole account, including all her past tweets. But that was reckless. It rendered some conversations of importance impossible for anyone to understand again, as it always does. This is a profound cultural issue: that people don’t realise how wrong this is. Including Twitter themselves.
Malign bit rot I divide into cynical and ideological. Amil Husain in the main post was being cynical. The attackers of the detransitioners on Reddit were being ideological, which meant, as it so often does, that they were, inter alia, being extremely cruel.
I call this my pseudo-taxonomy. Not ready for prime time but worth putting out there, just for the clarity that often emerges through an attempt to express oneself.
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One last comment tonight, to balance the picture up just a little. Why does one bother with Twitter (or WordPress.com for that matter!) Here is the short tweetstream from which I learned of Richard Dawkins’s difficulty in saying positive things in public about Helen Joyce’s book:
I like the way that went. A short debate but a thoughtful and thought-provoking one. And still there in February 2022!
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Mark, if you look immediately below the Wayback Machine you can search the wider archive which has many digitised books. It would be very hard to consult some of these old tomes in the flesh. So this is a case where the internet is countering what you might call “analog rot.”
Among them are many things that we have forgotten: of particular interest to me is the scale of animal culls “before we became a little civilised.” In Denierland I mentioned the culls of some birds for the fashion industry. Just now I searched for “walrus” and found a little book that says, among other things:
And:
Did they really? Do tell. And all this slaughter took place before there were film crews and instant global media? But climate change.
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Jit: Analog rot is the story of history! Talking of which, I was surprised to find an article by Thomas Sowell from 1979 as I was googling for a particular phrase this weekend. That would have been analog once as well, I assume – but has since been digitised and made presentable on the web. The vast pre-digital tracts preserved under archive.org are amazing, thanks for pointing us to that. We live in truly remarkable times. We just have to guard against certain downsides.
Parting is such sweet sorrow, Shakespeare said, but it wasn’t that way for me and Twitter. I miss the humour of various gender-critical women I follow especially:
(Note the use of archive.md in what follows. But let’s stick with the humour for now.)
So I went to look at ripx4nutmeg’s profile, for old time’s sake. Her pinned tweet leads to a highly unimpressive series of quotes from the Labour Party about women. And one retweet from Friday led to a much more gruelling series:
By not being plugged into Twitter in the way I used to be I know I miss some really important news/testimony. It’s a tradeoff. But improving debate is at the heart of this.
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David Heinemeier Hansson starting his thought for the day (with no comments allowed!)
He blames Twitter for wrecking decent debate and I’m not inclined to argue. Before I’m done here I will spell out what I see as the impact of the negatives in my pseudo-taxonomy, which are potentially wider than Big T.
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Another cause of bit rot: War.
Dominic Cummings in his excellent blog post yesterday on the Ukraine Crisis, including in the comments:
I didn’t know that about Richard Pipes. But I agree.
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Cummings on changing minds and actions on energy policy and doing it fast:
I hope he’s wrong. But can Net Zero and all that goes with it be turned around fast?
(Sorry to the OP that this comment has strayed O/T. But then I’m the OP!)
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(Just in case: On internet forums and message boards, OP is short for original poster, or the person who started the thread that users comment on. — Dictionary.com)
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Richard, I think Cummings has it right, sadly. I fear a re-run of the 70s. The great sadness is that it will be, at least in part, self-inflicted by the idiots in charge.
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Here’s another example of bit rot. But it’s not about climate, covid or even Ukraine. It does though give someone’s story born in the midst of the Blitz in 1942, so no doubt there are some parallels with what people are going through out East. Which is sobering.
I made a note of this because it was an amazing story of self-discovery, albeit a very sad one. And today I found it has been vanished. (The original no doubt had more than one paragraph.)
There’s a Drake family connection with Shardeloes, that’s the other thing, as can be confirmed by googling.
But it was this loss that bothered me much more than any of that.
We are far too trusting given an edit box online. Or maybe just telling this story to others born in the same place during WWII was enough for this man.
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Richard,
The internet can be a wonderful thing (as well as a dreadful thing). The volume of information on it since its inception exceeds, I imagine, many times over, the information available in books (or on tablets etc) since humankind started writing things down. And yet it seems whole swathes of it can simply be disappeared. That is indeed a matter of concern, especially given the presence of “bad actors” (in whatever context).
What is odd, though, is why that touching little story should have been disappeared in the way that it was. Curious, and bothersome.
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Twitter is full of porn and hateyness
Yet Twitter finds ways of banning none-wokes like Trump
This is a form of ethnic cleansing.
PS it is good that PolitOops monitors tweets that politicians delete
but it should be extended to all blue-tick accounts.
I think people should be able add a quarantine update to their own bad tweet, rather than be allowed to delete it.
eg “Sorry I sent that tweet, after drinking, I didn’t really mean it ” etc.
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Sorry, I’m in late having done my previous comment then having other stuff to do. Let me take the three comments in reverse.
Stew: Very good idea on a ‘quarantine update to their own bad tweet’ I think. Plus one would need a forgiving culture once someone does that.
Jit: Is that a quote from the guy that (I believe) started the site and has run it for many years? I interacted with him today, by email, about something else. He’s left the Amersham area which is bound to change things.
Mark: There was no malice involved at all, from what I can tell. It just is a sad loss, as things stand right now.
I want to do a bit of investigating by email before writing any more publicly.
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Richard, it is a quote from Wayback – I clicked on a random capture, got to the forum index, clicked on “Wartime Shardeloes” or similar, and got that message. Was hoping that perhaps the entire comment was preserved.
Looking at it again this morning it could well be a previous instance of bit rot, because the capture is dated 2005. I think I picked an early time to try to find an intact example. Will look again in a mo.
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Looks like it was back in action later on, but no archives were saved. It looks as if each page has to be snapped, rather than a nested tree of pages as I had hoped.
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Jit: Thanks. I didn’t look at Wayback for this URL because my experience is that this part
?s=78bbb28c9a00065bbfbf84597940ff51&showtopic=147&st=-10
makes the original text impossible to find. It would be great to be proved wrong on that though.
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Article about journos deleting tweets
https://www.cjr.org/tow_center/journalists-deleting-old-tweet.php
Journalists who regularly delete their tweets—more than half of the journalists we spoke to—often use automatic services such as Tweetdelete, Twitwipe, Tweeteraser, and Tweetdeleter. These services can be set up to erase all historical tweets, and can also schedule periodic deletions. With these services, heavy deleters create a blank Twitter feed every year, or even every week.
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Well yes, Since Twitter is THE place for narcissists deniability is important.
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Whatever Twitter has been this might just spell changes:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-61042412
Various people are hopeful. Ian Woolley commented in the pub last night that Bret Weinstein had gone rather quiet on Twitter itself. I said I’d heard him mention Musk (who he’d know through his brother Eric) as someone who could have a positive impact on the social media quagmire. Having become so polarising himself has Weinstein opted to keep a low profile as a new and fairer culture is born and/or negotiated?
Also worth thinking back to Michael Kelly’s positive comments on Musk, whom he has dealt with personally, here on Cliscep.
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At the nexus of Musk, Twitter, and Bit Rot: “Elon Musk, Twitter’s largest shareholder, polls followers for an edit button.”
https://www.theverge.com/2022/4/5/23011134/twitter-elon-musk-edit-button
Is the wild west about to be tamed, or just get wilder?
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Would the edit button come with full history preserved, as with Wikipedia? That’s a defining question. But it’s only the start. As you imply it could easily just get wilder.
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Bret Weinstein last night on Musk and two other tech giants who are younger than many of us (and that’s relevant) who are getting thoroughly fed up:
It could lead to positive change. I’m not a convinced cynic. Yet.
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Change of logotype?
I do like this ending to the BBC report on the ‘hostile’ takeover attempt.
There are certainly ironies for the sceptic of EV policies here.
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Tucker Carlson speaks up for those who have been censored by Twitter so far:
Donald Trump included. But not just Donald Trump.
There are lots of clips of Musk critics, albeit as a butt of Carlson’s mockery.
Including Robert Reich in (surprise surprise) the Guardian:
Elon Musk’s vision for the internet is dangerous nonsense
The fiduciary aspects are extremely interesting.
Who knows what can be achieved for free speech globally.
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The BBC is now reporting “Twitter shares rise as reports say Elon Musk deal close“. Here’s one aspect of what he aims to achieve:
Those who’ve followed me on Bishop Hill since November 2009 (and Climategate) will know that idea means a lot. Even though it may be hard to achieve. And this, from 14th April, is also highly radical:
Taking the whole Twitter code base and making it open source that means.
Please note I didn’t bother Cliscep with these details until the Musk takeover looked close to completion.
Back to the blessings of bumblebees 😉
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A couple of heartwarming and/or amusing tweets from today:
And a very pointed response from Musk on 14th to one Saudi shareholder critic:
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Pro but first con, from a familiar friend.
I don’t think people have grasped how radical the open sourcing of the code may be.
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The problem with our friend George’s view is, who gets to decide what’s the truth and what’s a lie? Often there are shades of grey. Where do we draw the line between an expression of opinion and an assertion that something is a fact? Often the two elide gently. There have been examples over the last couple of years of allegations been banned or at least ridiculed, which subsequently turned out to have more than the whiff of truth about them. And let’s face it, the Guardian doesn’t exactly live up to George’s world view as to what should be allowed and banned – it can be pretty hateful when its journalists get themselves worked up. Indeed, I notice 7 or 8 anti-Musk articles there in a single 24 hour period in the aftermath of his announcement that he was taking over Twitter, and they didn’t pull any punches. And how does advocating persuasion (as “the primary determinant of human action”) sit easily with banning things? Banning things drives them underground, persuades those whose views are banned that there IS a conspiracy and they must be right if the other lot are so keen on banning what they have to say. Banning speech, and ideas is dangerous. I suppose sometimes something is so patently dishonest or repugnant that it should be banned, but I incline towards allowing speech rather than banning it. I remain in the camp that believes that although I disagree fundamentally with what you say, I defend your right to say it.
By the way, Richard, can you explain to us IT illiterates how radical the open sourcing of the code may be, please? You’re right that I haven’t grasped its significance (not that I am “on” Twitter, anyway).
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Mark:
Very well said on the deep flaws – and lack of self-awareness and indeed Grauniad-awareness – in the Monbiot approach.
It’s a conventional politeness to say “I’m glad you asked that” but in this case it isn’t strictly true 🙂 I saw the question soon after you wrote it last night and groaned. Happily though I had to rush off to meet Ian Woolley to enjoy some traditional Somerset beverages in the pub. And Ian told me this hilarious fact: many Twitter users with non-establishment views are reporting that their numbers of followers have rocketed back to what they felt were ‘true’ levels in the last few days or hours.
What’s the connection with your question? Well, exactly.
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Lots has been happening between Musk and Twitter, notably on the company’s estimates of ‘fake users’. They say there are only 5% and Musk is giving his opinion on that in strong terms! Here are two videos from the last couple of days. The second one also talks about why open sourcing Twitter is relevant.
Lots of lawsuits coming up?
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The man himself five days ago, talking to various venture capitalists, led by Jason Calacanis. Only the first section is about the ‘bot problem’
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And the ‘bot problem’ has proved fatal for the deal:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62102821
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Dominic Cummings answers a question in the early hours on his blog
That did resonate, a great deal, with me. Except I have no ambition to manipulate SW1!
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Musk ‘baulked’ – leaving Twitter free to misbehave as it sees fit?
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A fascinating example of what I think is exactly the wrong approach on Twitter.
Which generated this rather brilliant response.
Fair enough. But note the reaction of this bystander.
No, no, no. I respect Mark Acton for leaving it up. And so should everyone else.
—-
Elon Musk now has a whistleblower on Twitter’s lack of candour on the number of ‘bots’, that it appears he didn’t know about until today, and we also have John’s mentor Dr Fenton on the immorality of Wikipedia, as discussed elsewhere. I’ll say more on those here I expect. But these tweets make the point nicely about habitual bit rot of interactions, which remains my main focus in this thread.
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On that Twitter whistleblower, here’s Wired yesterday
Also from Wired, later in the day: The Most Damning Allegation in the Twitter Whistleblower’s Report
My bold. The fact they’ve tried to shoot or denigrate the messenger rather than provide these details of the logging systems looks very bad for Twitter. Musk’s people will be all over this by now, with what you might call quite a financial incentive.
The “outsized influence” over “hundreds of millions” is right. Same for Wikipedia.
We can only hope.
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Today Margot Cleveland argues that the 2020 election was stolen from Donald Trump but – and here’s the plot twist – not by social media. A chance remark made by a trusting Mark Zuckerberg of Facebook to podcaster Joe Rogan shows that the FBI knowingly lied about the Hunter Biden laptop to ensure that Trump wouldn’t win. Social media was used but it wasn’t their own design. See Zuckerberg’s admission reveals a deeper scandal: It was the FBI and not social media that stole the election from Donald Trump. There’s plenty of backup detail.
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From the article:
If the social media companies were told to censor the story, and the fact of censorship was used to question the story, then we have a very sorry state of affairs.
I don’t usually go in for conspiracy theories. (Honest!) But I can’t think of an alternative explanation that makes better sense than partisanship. Can anyone else? The subsequent silence on this speaks volumes.
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Jit: Indeed. Now two senators, ranking members of the Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations and of the Senate Judiciary Committee (whatever those positions actually mean), are asking both Facebook and the FBI to release the relevant communications.
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always thought it strange how the Hunter Biden laptop story got buried so quickly.
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The latest on how the laptop story was suppressed to win Joe Biden the election
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As Ian Woolley once said on Cliscep, Candace Owens did nothing wrong. Or perhaps this week she did?
That was at Paris Fashion Week with Ye, now the legal name of rapper Kanye West. Who is also back on Twitter:
That pic really tickled me. (You have to have seen the original meme for the full effect.) Tucker Carlson’s lengthy interview with Ye three nights ago on the whys and wherefores is currently watchable on YouTube here and here. (Unofficial uploads it looks – Fox News may choose to delete at any time I guess.)
Tucker and Candace are definitely climate sceptics. Even Elon Musk has been saying sensible things about Net Zero in recent days. H/t Dominic Cummings for letting me know that something was going on. I don’t necessarily know what.
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Richard – thanks for the “laptop story” update.
so “FBI’s Foreign Influence Task Force (FITF)” thought it was Russian disinformation & asked MSM to shut it down.
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They said they thought that. But the FBI had possession of the laptop, the contents of which clearly weren’t. They knew they were telling lies to influence the result of the election.
The ‘blame Putin’ theme can be overdone, in this case to give the West leaders who are also corrupt and revel in violence. But any time I read The Guardian I am amazed how powerful this mindset seems to be with that readership. And yet in the heyday of Stalin the Manchester Guardian could see no wrong in the Kremlin leader. There’s a weirdness here, just as there is with Russia’s present-day Stalin-apologists. The combination doesn’t tend towards a stable and peaceful world.
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Well, in my view the new owner of Twitter is overlooking the dodgy history of the Guardian in its support for Uncle Joe in 1930s (see my last comment, of 9th October) in his evaluation of the current tripe:
Paul Graham is another notable Silicon Valley venture capitalist. Do the Guardian readers on Cliscep (we know who you are!) agree that the paper’s outrage against Musk could be partly (shock horror) commercially motivated? This idea led to me learning one serious bit of good news – about the restoration of the Twitter account of a doughty UK fighter against online anti-semitism:
and to this very funny response given the tropes of transgender activism:
(For there’s no such thing as science-based reality behind the two sexes, there are only social constructs. That’s the subtle hack gender ideology introduced into the western narrative.)
Poor old Guardian, getting such stick. All triggered by the fact it takes grave exception to Mr Musk taking over its favourite infantile playground. (And this thread is really about how some maturity could be restored to Twitter debate.)
The best quote this side of the pond on the subject of Elon and his new baby today?
Mary Wakefield, wife of Dominic Cummings, in Don’t sneer at Elon Musk in The Spectator.
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Also in the Spectator, two days ago, this was Fraser Nelson on something else relevant to this thread: Sunak drops ‘legal but harmful’ censorship clause. Some excerpts:
Kemi being sat next to Sunak in the first PMQs I watched was another symbolic thing. But this decision is of substance and in the right direction. Badenoch was forthright and cogent on the subject. Dowden is clearly an important thinker-actor in the new administration. As climate dissidents we’re bound to benefit from getting this kind of thing right.
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The #TwitterFiles are revealing, thanks to Musk’s ownership, how warped ‘free speech’ became on Twitter in 2020 and 2021. Here’s a key moment, written up by someone who’s been concerned by warped thinking on energy and climate.
In a screenshot this morning note that #ClimateScam is trending. It is quite a lot these days.
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A good summary of the legal position, the advantages to the public of seeing the ‘backroom deals’ and what we should be most concerned about vis-a-vis the Twitter Files, by Charles Lipson in The Spectator yesterday, before Shellenberger released part 4 of the curated revelations:
Note that I wrote, rather carefully, ‘curated revelations’. The former Twitter CEO, who backed Musk’s takeover, has noticed that:
Interesting times not just for Twitter but for all big tech and social media.
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Very interesting, and the problem is that we, the people, will see only a partial version of reality, whatever reality is. I think it’s interesting to see the extent to which BBC, Guardian, much of the US MSM, etc are avoiding reporting on this story in any depth or in some cases at all. That might or might not be sinister, but it is surely curious, given their obsession with all things related to Musk and his takeover of Twitter.
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Mark:
Yep, a point made by a Republican congressman yesterday (but that may be out of date by now)
The response going straight to the “all who disagree with us are Nazis” trope.
Twitter debate is like that, at least in parts, and I wouldn’t want Musk to change that.
But Michael Shellenberger isn’t a Nazi. Nor are Matt Taibbi and Bari Weiss, who is of course Jewish.
The balance of power has shifted. None of us can ever have a totally balanced view of reality, even just on climate and energy. Selection/curation is essential to making sense of the world. And the humility to change our view as the weight of evidence demands.
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Just to clarify a few points. I wrote around lunchtime:
The peacemaker in me wishes Twitter wasn’t like that but it became so early in the 140-character tweet stage and I feel it would be wrong to try to retrofit more politeness from the top now. It can only happen incrementally and bottom-up.
As for Donald Trump’s failure to win the 2020 election I am with those who feel that suppression of the Hunter Biden laptop story by Twitter, Facebook and Google cost Trump another term. But I think it’s important to note that Elon Musk doesn’t agree with me on this:
I agree strongly with his second paragraph there, of course, as I would hope all of us do.
Lastly, this is very funny and I love Musk’s response
And this is perhaps a more profound sign of good things in the works than one might think.
More fun. We all need that.
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Douglas Murray did an excellent summary of the Hunter Biden aspects of the first three #TwitterFiles releases in The Times on Friday: The secrets of Hunter Biden’s laptop spell trouble for Joe. That’s paywall-bypassed courtesy of archive.ph (part of the archive family mentioned above). And let’s remember the Ukrainian energy company at the heart of the weirdness:
Some careful wording on “the big guy” with help from the Times lawyers there, no doubt 😉 And I think this is fair too, in praise of the world’s richest man:
Not bad for a guy who used to vote Democrat until very recently. The whole piece is worth a look.
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The latest tranche has just dropped.
Nothing like this has happened to a social media company, from the inside.
Despite the limitations (and curation) that has to be good.
Less bit rot in the world, or as Twitter used to say …
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This is getting really serious.
97%. We all know what that signifies.
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On 10th February I wrote:
Here’s something horrible that Twitter refused to do anything about until Elon Musk took charge. Which change in policy led to an attack from the Jeff Bezos-owned Washington Post. Please do click into these tweets if you want to know more.
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Twitter Files 6 has just dropped. Here’s one MAGA supporter’s summary just now.
Too simplistic? Certainly the alleged threat of Russian interference, plus the “Domestic Violent Extremist Threat”, were both used as justification (or as a pretext) for increased FBI, DHS and multi-agency control of Twitter in 2020 and 2021, as Taibbi shows:
The “deep state” is a tangled web and there’s more to come in explicating that …
Bret Weinstein wasn’t alone in expecting #TwitterFiles6 to be about the “information management” of Covid – a subject of interest to Cliscep since at least February 2020. I’m sure those files are indeed on the way. But in parallel to the Twitter Files initiative, some of the most egregious bans in the Covid area are being lifted:
Why is all this so important? Because the US Government working in such an underhand way with private companies to limit freedom of speech in such crucial areas seems a clear breach of the US Constitution. And because a lot of us believe that the following must be true:
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The lifting of unjustified past suspensions, which I am not alone in believing greatly reduced the quality of debate on Twitter – on the Covid pandemic, transgenderism and indeed the ‘climate crisis’ – is bang on target for this thread. This aspect of the new regime goes back over three weeks:
Musk was challenged then, quite rightly, to make future rules and penalties “clear and consistent”. But how bad the past has been has genuinely been a shock.
Musk is already being accused of inconsistency in a MSM that clearly wants him to fail. But here’s another perspective I came across today: a tweet from an intermittent user which has received no likes and no retweets.
For many users I think this is true. The changes are deep but the surface looks the same. That’s the strength of the network effect I mentioned much earlier here. Much still to play for.
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Richard, regarding the nexus between Twitter and covid lockdowns, this from UnHerd about Jay Bhattacharya’s “trend blacklisting”:
And on the nexus of climate, Twitter, and objective truth, this a week ago from “mild-mannered grandmother” Judith Curry:
https://judithcurry.com/2022/12/09/jc-navigates-the-new-media/
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Meanwhile, the Twitter files do not exist in much of the mainstream media. Of more concern to the BBC is the “unexplained” banning of several journalists (who have now been reinstated).
“Twitter condemned by UN and EU over reporters’ ban”
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-63996061
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Jit, thank you for both the UnHerd and Curry references. Not for the first time I feel like an idiot – for commenting on the Twitter Files, starting last Sunday, without realising Judith had put up that post two days before. Very helpful it is too.
I was aware of this from Jay Bhattacharya
before I began to comment here but I didn’t know of the personal invitation from Musk to Bhattacharya to visit Twitter HQ and what he learned there. I’d decided to cover the lockdown, origins and vaccine debates mainly when the Twitter Files went into that area. But so many lives were at stake..
It was Thursday 8th December that I learned that someone I knew professionally, and greatly respected, had committed suicide the previous weekend. Reading Chris’s Twitter feed, and those of his colleagues and open-source collaborators, made me uneasy about the majority attitude to Elon Musk’s takeover of Twitter. Chris struck me as having a more sensible, pragmatic approach than his peers and it made me wonder … did the difference there, and related ones, play into his sense of isolation and despair?
Without question this was a motivation for me to reopen the Bit Rot comments at such a time.
I’ll probably come back to details of the Bhattacharya and Curry. The BBC haven’t reached the threshold of being interesting enough to waste time on. I had seen their strenuous efforts to miss the most important points.
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Richard – thanks for the running comments on this. can’t “like” so take this as total “like”.
I having nothing to add (Jit beat me to it)
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Reading the article linked below, it feels a bit like a plague on both of your houses territory:
“Oh, so now you care about Big Tech censorship?
Elon Musk’s suspension of journalists has revealed the depths of liberal hypocrisy.”
https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/12/18/oh-so-now-you-care-about-big-tech-censorship/
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Peter McCullough being unbanned and (presumably) un-shadow banned means that I was able to watch him and Dr Malhotra agreeing on Covid vaccines today. This is another part of the network effect – really important independent, expert testimony comes together to reinforce the point at issue.
That wouldn’t have come to so many people’s attention today in the old regime. I did write earlier:
It is a trifle chaotic at present but the outstanding benefits of freeing up the speech of people like Dr McCullough and others easily outweigh what I will call teething problems. For now, anyway.
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Starts a few minutes in.
https://vimeo.com/munkdebates/review/775853977/85003a644c?#
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Thanks Beth. Just to show that I did notice the latest …
I agree with Gad on the importance. But the poll has now closed.
I remain really grateful for Musk’s ownership and its impact.
I didn’t expect all this when I began this thread!
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Here’s the challenge: “just not profitable”
Meaning the choice of the new CEO will be crucial. Meanwhile:
Techno Fog (an old friend from my Twitter-addict phase) helpfully summarises:
— https://technofog.substack.com/p/more-twitter-files-intelligence-community
Judy Curry gets that the shadow-banning, the outright banning and the rest of the editorial abuses were worst in the area of transgenderism, then all aspects of Covid, then climate. At least that’s how I read her post of 9th December and I strongly agree. Tom Nelson being banned, now restored, was outrageous. But climate realists haven’t had the worst of it. It’s been that bad.
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Here’s a tweet from yesterday that claims that Elon Musk loves Monty Python.
It also implies that the Pythons foretold trangenderism. For that there is evidence.
And now Cleese says that the new freedom on Twitter will lead to attacks on this sketch.
My judgment too is that this is the biggest area of anger at what Musk has been doing.
Well, apart from making sure that Trump didn’t win in 2020. And that was merely temporary.
The link with climate? In both areas damage is done to vulnerable young people.
In one case bogus fear of extinction, in the other the self-harm of ‘transitioning’.
That’s why neither is really a joke. And both demand uncensored debate.
But we love our Josh cartoons and this clip from Python is truly amazing.
And it’s amazing too that so much can be communicated in a couple of tweets.
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And I missed the man’s endorsement …
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Last comment for this morning. Here Musk – using Twitter Spaces – outlines the commercial challenges Twitter faces next year in stark fashion. This took place some time in the last 36 hours, after the vote for Musk to stand down as CEO. He also talks about his plans – or maybe vague ideas is better – for the software engineering side of the business, earning wrath and ridicule from some former senior Twitter developers. (See He/him and he/him for some scornful tweets in the last 48 hours.) That aspect, both technical and social, I’m really really interested in. But I’m going to count it out of scope for this thread. For now, until I have more clarity on the subject. Just the first few minutes of this gives you the cash flow picture of a $3.5bn underhang next year with just $1bn in the bank:
And, as the kicker, the 33-year-old coder who hosted the discussion has now left the company: Hacker George Hotz Resigns From Twitter 4 Weeks Into His Internship. But software in some big companies really is this chaotic, believe me. I’m inclined to back Musk.
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Richard,
>”But software in some big companies really is this chaotic, believe me.”
Since I was once a software quality assurance manager for some years in my dim and distant past, I don’t need to believe you. I just need to be prepared to reflect upon why I now have PTSD. 🙂
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Today comedy is not aloud, Monty Python, The Two Ronnies, The Goons walking backwards for Xmas…
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Hmmm, PTSD… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNvvkv4UDdM&ab_channel=2ronnies91
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Thanks John. And I love the Two Ronnies sketch Beth!
Yesterday morning I realised that Meghan Murphy was back on Twitter, having been banned in November 2018. And just an hour before I’d noticed that, she’d published this to her Substack: If you care about democracy, integrity, and the truth, the Twitter files matter a great deal. It looks very good but I have to admit, as with much else, I haven’t read it all yet.
For the BBC’s view of Murphy in May 2019 see Twitter-ban feminist defends transgender views ahead of Holyrood meeting. The first link provided in that article is quite a disappointment. Bit Rot. Quite a striking example. I might come back to that.
But I was very excited to see that the ‘amnesty’ Musk declared on 24th November has been having its effect on some the best and the brightest of the ‘gender critical’ feminists concerned with transgender activism who were mercilessly treated by Twitter in those days. Too excited to write it down.
Debate in these areas was a sick joke on the platform. And now it isn’t. Off to read Murphy’s thoughts.
(And we need to come back to Substack. Important encourager of long-form debate. But step at a time.)
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It’s ironic isn’t it how transgender rights are over-ruling women’s rights like safety in
places like prisons and changing rooms. Not to mention language manipulation such as
‘birthing person’ and ‘chest’ feeding.
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It’s ironic and it’s evil Beth. But Kellie-Jay is also back and up late like me!
So glad to hear that Graham Linehan is also back. This is so good.
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Wishing All at Cliscep, despite all…,
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As I was saying when I prematurely hit the comment button,
… A Verie Merrie Christmas.
https://www.google.com/search?q=the+goodies+5+minute+christmas&oq=5minute+CHRISTMAS+tHE+gOODIES&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0i22i30j0i390l3.21503j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:35fe81e9,vid:K5zUX5rhpF8
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Love The Goodies take on the traditional celebrations Beth. (I cleaned up a typo.)
Here’s something else that feels very new on Twitter. In the ‘What’s happening’ column you often see references to Christian themes. You never did pre-Musk. Here’s a seasonal example from a few moments ago. With two trendings on the gender critical front as well. Peace ain’t going to be easy. But then it never was.
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Thx, Richard. And here’s to a censorship clean-up by Elon Musk.
Cheers!
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It would be nice to think that this represents a change of policy for the New Year at the Guardian/Observer:
“The Twitter Files should disturb liberal critics of Elon Musk – and here’s why
Kenan Malik
Leaked messages show an unhealthy link between social media and state security”
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/01/the-twitter-files-should-disturb-liberal-critics-of-elon-musk-and-heres-why
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Mark: That’s very encouraging. And where could all this lead? I think this interaction on Wednesday on science and its abuses could have massive implications for the climate debate:
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Mark – again I had look up what “culture wars” means – “Politicians like to provoke them, academics like to analyse them. Yet most people don’t even know what they’re all about”https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/13/everything-you-wanted-to-know-about-the-culture-wars-but-were-afraid-to-ask
“Last week produced an eventful but not untypical weather-front of news stories about culturally contentious issues. There was the microstorm about the Queen’s photo being taken down in the common room at Magdalen College, Oxford; the tiny tempest of Test cricketer Ollie Robinson being dropped for racist tweets dating from when he was a teenager; the squall over the England football team’s commitment to taking the knee; and the sudden shower of Oxford academics boycotting Oriel College over its decision to retain its reviled Cecil Rhodes statue.
These, along with the deathless headline “Law student cleared after saying women have vaginas”, were examples of what might also be called skirmishes in a larger and ongoing series of battles: the culture wars.”
again, none the wiser!!!
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